Post by roaring20s on May 10, 2010 0:54:19 GMT -6
I did some experimentation for a better understanding of Bamboo Needles. With it I hope to expel some myth and shine light upon it. Get some coffee, this is long winded.
I used old stock for this exercise. The old stock has the outer skin of the stalk on the leading surface. This is its strength.
Prior to obtaining old stock, I made my own from skewers. I promote home made needles too, but they lack the outer stalk, hence strength. I did not have a sample so I followed an on-line guide. I used a nail clipper to point them. From this trial and error process I learned a few things. I got good results on better graded records. Re-point after one, two or three plays was common. They would often just make it through a low graded record. Point failure occurred occasionally. I have heard of using old fishing poles and garden center bamboo stakes. I have not tried these alternatives. Here is the link to the previous post.
victrolagramophones.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=18&page=1
The following testing was performed on a Victor III with an Exhibition reproducer. These few tests will demonstrates durability in its repeated use and establish an estimated life of play. Your results will vary depending on the equipment you use and the records you play most.
I started by using a needle that fills the reproducer's chock, the bamboo equivalent of Loud Tone Needle. I played each of the selected discs over and over with the same needle. A little maddening to say the least.
........................................
Test One (early 20's, 12" disc)
To begin I selected a 12" disc for this part of my exercise, Victor Bat Wing (35698-A), in E- condition, titled Ziegfeld Follies of 1920, performed by Joseph C. Smith's Orchestra. A peppy number with sound layered on top of each other. The play time is 4 minutes 5 seconds.
As I placed the needle to the record, I notice that the groove is very slightly off center to the spindle hole. The music played loud and clear with a faint whoosh in places.
This set of photographs shows the stalk edge and how it wore after 4 plays. That's 16 minutes 20 seconds of play on the same point.
I had hoped for a better visual progression of wear with theses photos. I see now that I would need a new test for the best angle of view. These will have to do.
On the fourth play I detect a loss of some of the background layer in the sound. No distortion. I would re-point it at this time.
This is a photo of the point when the test ended. Continued play would either result in a point failure or it would wear down and begin occupying two positions in the groove. An echo effect results.
......................................
Test Two (same early 20's, 12" disc)
For this I used the same record and made an alteration to the needle itself. First I gave it a normal trim with the Victor Fibre Needle Cutter. Then with a sharp razor blade I took a sliver off the trailing side. Simply achieved by pressing it into the point and splitting it down its length.
This next photograph shows the point and how it wears after 6 plays. Two Extra Plays on the same point! That's now 24 minutes 30 seconds of play.
It seemed just as loud as the first test. The 6th play had similar loss as on the 4th play on test one.
...............................
So, I now have shown that a 4 minute 5 second recording in E- condition can be played 6 times on the same point. I've had the same result playing different 12" records on the same condition. Again, that's 24 minutes 30 seconds of play.
The bulk of my record collection is from the late teens through the mid 1930's. I use this THINNED needle mostly. It works great with my equipment. When I made my own from skewers and found the width makes the difference from the late teens and after.
...............................
Test Three (early 30's, 10" disc)
Here I used a Brunswick Filigree Label (3270-A), in V to V+ condition, titled How Could Little Red Riding Hood, performed by The Yacht Club Boys. It is a funny vocal song at 2 minutes 45 seconds. I picked this for its time period, its average surface quality with some graying, scuffing and a few stressed grooves.
After re-pointing the needle I played this 11 times. The hiss in the record masked any loss to my ear. I could have played it again (Sam), but I was not trying to establish when the point would fail. In any case 29 minutes 30 seconds of play is plenty for this exercise. I'd speculate that if this record were in better condition, and using Test Two's result in detecting some loss, it would play 9 times very well. That's 22 minutes on one point.
....................................
Now we're deeper into the electric era. This is where it has been said that it's time to pack up that antique and crank up the Orthophonic. I have had only one set of classical music on the Victor Orthophonic label blast my reproducer. The bass was far greater than it could utter. It was a shame because I liked it. Otherwise, none of the music I like gives my old Vic III an issue. As mentioned earlier my interest tappers off in the mid to late 30's as Swing took over.
.....................................
Test Four (late 30's, 10" disc)
Here I am using a Vocalion Blue Label Full-Range Recording (4412), E+ condition, titled Clarinet Marmalade, performed by Frankie Trumbauer and his Orchestra. Energetic jazz at 3 minutes 10 seconds.
The needle was re-pointed and this record sounded great. The reproducer handled this Full-Range Recording with ease. I just stopped playing it after 7 times since the needle life had been estimated at 22 minutes. This test was for the reproducer's ability in conjuncture with this needle type.
.........................................
I do have several records which are later than is reasonable for use on my equipment. From here on out you risk damage to your records. The following is presented only as a matter of fact. These records are not intended for use on a system this old, but they will play.
.......................................
Test Five (early 40"s, 10" disc)
Here I am using an Okeh Purple Label (06274), E+ condition, titled You Are My Sunshine, performed by Gene Autry. A simple song without complex sound. No need for time since that is not what this is about.
After having given the needle a normal re-pointing, I then took another sliver off the trailing side as I did in Test Two. This thinnest needle rides that groove well.
It played fine. The thinner cut is like a soft tone needle, so the volume is lower. I would re-point after each play.
.......................................
Let the madness end with this...
Test Six (early 50's, 12" disc)
Victor RCA Circular Label (36131-A), V++ condition, titled Park Avenue Fantasy, performed by Paul Whiteman and his Concert Orchestra.
Re-pointed the same thin needle and gave it a whirl. The record has some graying in its loudest parts.
It played well and those loud sections just start to fall apart. This disc ate up the point in one play. I keep this disc only as an example of my systems limit.
...................................
There, you have it. A report on Bamboo Needle usage as demonstrated on a well tuned Victor III with an Exhibition Reproducer. I hope this will promote a needle that extends the life of your records. As well as to narrow the myth that such a system cannot handle electric era recordings. You should experiment with your equipment and decide its limits for your regular playlist.
One last note. The thinnest cut of needle works great as a soft tone on the earlier records too. I use them in the evening when I do not want to disturb the rest of the household.
James.
I used old stock for this exercise. The old stock has the outer skin of the stalk on the leading surface. This is its strength.
Prior to obtaining old stock, I made my own from skewers. I promote home made needles too, but they lack the outer stalk, hence strength. I did not have a sample so I followed an on-line guide. I used a nail clipper to point them. From this trial and error process I learned a few things. I got good results on better graded records. Re-point after one, two or three plays was common. They would often just make it through a low graded record. Point failure occurred occasionally. I have heard of using old fishing poles and garden center bamboo stakes. I have not tried these alternatives. Here is the link to the previous post.
victrolagramophones.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=18&page=1
The following testing was performed on a Victor III with an Exhibition reproducer. These few tests will demonstrates durability in its repeated use and establish an estimated life of play. Your results will vary depending on the equipment you use and the records you play most.
I started by using a needle that fills the reproducer's chock, the bamboo equivalent of Loud Tone Needle. I played each of the selected discs over and over with the same needle. A little maddening to say the least.
........................................
Test One (early 20's, 12" disc)
To begin I selected a 12" disc for this part of my exercise, Victor Bat Wing (35698-A), in E- condition, titled Ziegfeld Follies of 1920, performed by Joseph C. Smith's Orchestra. A peppy number with sound layered on top of each other. The play time is 4 minutes 5 seconds.
As I placed the needle to the record, I notice that the groove is very slightly off center to the spindle hole. The music played loud and clear with a faint whoosh in places.
This set of photographs shows the stalk edge and how it wore after 4 plays. That's 16 minutes 20 seconds of play on the same point.
I had hoped for a better visual progression of wear with theses photos. I see now that I would need a new test for the best angle of view. These will have to do.
On the fourth play I detect a loss of some of the background layer in the sound. No distortion. I would re-point it at this time.
This is a photo of the point when the test ended. Continued play would either result in a point failure or it would wear down and begin occupying two positions in the groove. An echo effect results.
......................................
Test Two (same early 20's, 12" disc)
For this I used the same record and made an alteration to the needle itself. First I gave it a normal trim with the Victor Fibre Needle Cutter. Then with a sharp razor blade I took a sliver off the trailing side. Simply achieved by pressing it into the point and splitting it down its length.
This next photograph shows the point and how it wears after 6 plays. Two Extra Plays on the same point! That's now 24 minutes 30 seconds of play.
It seemed just as loud as the first test. The 6th play had similar loss as on the 4th play on test one.
...............................
So, I now have shown that a 4 minute 5 second recording in E- condition can be played 6 times on the same point. I've had the same result playing different 12" records on the same condition. Again, that's 24 minutes 30 seconds of play.
The bulk of my record collection is from the late teens through the mid 1930's. I use this THINNED needle mostly. It works great with my equipment. When I made my own from skewers and found the width makes the difference from the late teens and after.
...............................
Test Three (early 30's, 10" disc)
Here I used a Brunswick Filigree Label (3270-A), in V to V+ condition, titled How Could Little Red Riding Hood, performed by The Yacht Club Boys. It is a funny vocal song at 2 minutes 45 seconds. I picked this for its time period, its average surface quality with some graying, scuffing and a few stressed grooves.
After re-pointing the needle I played this 11 times. The hiss in the record masked any loss to my ear. I could have played it again (Sam), but I was not trying to establish when the point would fail. In any case 29 minutes 30 seconds of play is plenty for this exercise. I'd speculate that if this record were in better condition, and using Test Two's result in detecting some loss, it would play 9 times very well. That's 22 minutes on one point.
....................................
Now we're deeper into the electric era. This is where it has been said that it's time to pack up that antique and crank up the Orthophonic. I have had only one set of classical music on the Victor Orthophonic label blast my reproducer. The bass was far greater than it could utter. It was a shame because I liked it. Otherwise, none of the music I like gives my old Vic III an issue. As mentioned earlier my interest tappers off in the mid to late 30's as Swing took over.
.....................................
Test Four (late 30's, 10" disc)
Here I am using a Vocalion Blue Label Full-Range Recording (4412), E+ condition, titled Clarinet Marmalade, performed by Frankie Trumbauer and his Orchestra. Energetic jazz at 3 minutes 10 seconds.
The needle was re-pointed and this record sounded great. The reproducer handled this Full-Range Recording with ease. I just stopped playing it after 7 times since the needle life had been estimated at 22 minutes. This test was for the reproducer's ability in conjuncture with this needle type.
.........................................
I do have several records which are later than is reasonable for use on my equipment. From here on out you risk damage to your records. The following is presented only as a matter of fact. These records are not intended for use on a system this old, but they will play.
.......................................
Test Five (early 40"s, 10" disc)
Here I am using an Okeh Purple Label (06274), E+ condition, titled You Are My Sunshine, performed by Gene Autry. A simple song without complex sound. No need for time since that is not what this is about.
After having given the needle a normal re-pointing, I then took another sliver off the trailing side as I did in Test Two. This thinnest needle rides that groove well.
It played fine. The thinner cut is like a soft tone needle, so the volume is lower. I would re-point after each play.
.......................................
Let the madness end with this...
Test Six (early 50's, 12" disc)
Victor RCA Circular Label (36131-A), V++ condition, titled Park Avenue Fantasy, performed by Paul Whiteman and his Concert Orchestra.
Re-pointed the same thin needle and gave it a whirl. The record has some graying in its loudest parts.
It played well and those loud sections just start to fall apart. This disc ate up the point in one play. I keep this disc only as an example of my systems limit.
...................................
There, you have it. A report on Bamboo Needle usage as demonstrated on a well tuned Victor III with an Exhibition Reproducer. I hope this will promote a needle that extends the life of your records. As well as to narrow the myth that such a system cannot handle electric era recordings. You should experiment with your equipment and decide its limits for your regular playlist.
One last note. The thinnest cut of needle works great as a soft tone on the earlier records too. I use them in the evening when I do not want to disturb the rest of the household.
James.